Pilates with your Spouse

Joseph Pilates had a very famous saying In 10 sessions you will feel better, in 20 sessions you're gonna look better. And in 30 sessions, you're going to have a whole new body or your money back, always the salesman. Now imagine this you've been teaching Pilates for 30 years doing it for longer. You're married for over 32 years or into your 32nd year. And you finally get your husband to take it.

But not only just try Pilates instead, that couple together decides to take on that phrase and they do the entire 30 sessions to prove it. Let me take it one step further letting you know that this is Kathy Ross-Nash. If you don't know her, you should. She has been an industry standard and preserving our industry for so long. Wayne Nash and Kathy Ross-Nash are both here today to talk about the experience.

And I am so excited. So I wanna say that they're in Florida down at the Red Thread ranch and I am here in Summerland, California. And thank you both so much for being here. Thanks for having us. We're so excited to be sharing this with you and Pilates anytime.

This is so incredibly exciting for me. I can't tell you how exciting it is for me and all of us behind the scenes here. Cause I don't know that anyone has ever done this and I truly, I mean maybe they've done it, but they haven't documented it. And it wasn't you Kathy, you know you're kind of that, that matters too. And Wayne, I know you too and I'm gonna go into more of that but I would love for Kathy, if you would just tell us a little bit more about the premise.

Like what is this premise of this phrase? And, and also I'm gonna ask both of you why did you do it? What made you do it? So the premise of the phrase came from Joe's advertisement to get people to come in and try the work. You know, that money back guarantee.

We always say the phrase, but we always leave back or your money back, which was great. Cause he didn't pay me, so, you know, there was no money back. One reason I really wanted to do this was because I see all over the world in different fitness genres people making states to claims that this will do this and this will do this and this will do this. And I know because I live this work and I've done this many times with clients that this statement that Joe Pilates professes is truth, when you use Pilates as a method. And most importantly, what we have to understand is Mr. Nash did three hours a week and he did what Joe prescribed for you to do.

And I wanted to prove that this work that I believe in my heart, my soul, every cell of my body, that it is true, what he said. And so when Wayne asked me to do he wanted to start training Pilates. I said, well, little manipulative here but if you want to do it, we have to do honestly because it would be good for him. You have to do the real deal. You can't just come in, have me stretch you, have me push you around, come back in.

No, you have to train the method. You have to do what Joe Pilates prescribed to do, otherwise you will not get the full benefits. And I will be frustrated because I wanna teach the work as the work is meant to be taught, not just to make somebody feel happy and good once or twice a week. I'm with you. And I respect that about you too.

Cause I don't know that everyone thinks that way about when they take on a client, it's a client at sometimes. And I, the spoiler alert is the reason we're doing this is oh my goodness, we have proof. And they documented it all along the way. It's very, very exciting. And we will show the whole thing on Pilates anytime.

But along the way, even Kathy was on her Instagram feed was showing these pictures and I was like really even, and I, I know it's true but it's still was so beautiful to see. And, and so, and, and I'm gonna add to that, Kathy, I know you don't teach one-offs if you will. I know you don't teach you know, You stopped doing that a long time ago. And Wayne you must know that too. So my questions are going to Wayne now.

One, what took you so long? And two, what made you after 32 years know that it was gonna be 30 sessions that you couldn't get out of or you had to deal with that? So these are to you, Wayne, please. Yeah, I mean, so obviously, you know, we've got this pandemic going on and and we're locked out from what I traditionally how I traditionally workout is going to the gym. And so what I did is I quickly pivoted to the, to the bike and I was doing the bike five, six days a week and my hips and my hamstrings were really starting to bother me.

So Kathy said, you know what? And she is multiple times over the year said, you should try Pilates. And I said, no, not giving up the gym not giving up the gym. And I said, well, there's no gym. So I might as well give it a shot.

So she said, well, if you're going to do this you have to make a commitment. And I said, well, I'm not really going anywhere. So I might as well commit to the 30 sessions. And, I decided that if I was going to do it and in anything that I do in life I try to do it as, as well as I possibly can. So I came in honestly with no expectations and nothing preconceived notions as far as how I would feel, or I just figured that, you know what?

I'm not going to the gym and let's give this a shot. Fantastic, I mean, I hate that it came from a pandemic, but still, yeah and I want to just tell people more of what you do. You've had a successful career. You play lots of you do more than the gym. You play tennis.

You are, I know how much you play golf. What are the other things that you do? So, Like physically Yeah, I mean played competitive tennis in high school and in college and played a lot of racquetball over the last 10 or 15 years. I play golf four to six times a week. And I, you know, I, my father unfortunately passed away at a young age and I was determined that if I didn't want that to happen to me.

And so from a physical fitness perspective, I wanted to make sure that I stayed in shape and staying in shape, I tried to stay in good cardio shape as well, as well as what I thought was a decent physical shape. And until I started taking Pilates I realized that I wasn't in good physical shape either, so. Oh, wow. That's a big statement I wanna come back to. But thank you.

Yeah, because I know you a little and I know that you've been part and parcel to creating a space like the ranch where you're sitting now and you have a home elsewhere where Kathy's done a lot of our work. Kathy has trained people all around the world but there is this pretty significant space that you host that it's technically your home. And so you've been supportive of it, obviously. I'm curious about the notions you had about it. You know, when, when 30 of us show up at the ranch and we're so excited, we get to work with Kathy.

I'll get to you Kathy soon. I'll come back to you, but no really, I mean, it's, it's a privilege and you've you've been in, you've helped facilitate that. So, I don't know what you see or think in the background, but I'd love to. So I'm just wondering what your notions I know you didn't have expectations. What are your notions Yeah, I mean of Pilates prior?

Sure, so, at our house in New Jersey Kathy's studio, well initially it started on the first floor and I was above that. And then when she needed more space I got kicked out of that. And then I went down downstairs to the first floor and she took the entire upstairs space. So, I would see I'm not blind over the years as the way in which it's situated is that people would almost have to walk by my office to to get upstairs to the second floor. So conversely not only do they have to walk by me they had to walk by me when they left.

And so, fortunately there is a bathroom where a lot of the folks would either change or take a quick shower or just freshen up. And so I had the opportunity to notice the condition that they were in when they walked in to their lesson and then conversely, the condition that they walked in or they walked out when they were done with the lesson. And over the years, I would see students walk in and you know, sometimes they didn't realize I was there. So they would talk freely amongst themselves. And so they would say, oh my back, or, or geez, my my leg or, or this is bothering me, this is bothering me.

And I would notice that they were a lot of the times, they were very tight. Their body language was very tight. And when they would leave you could see this glow on their face. You could hear what they were saying is like this is fantastic. I don't know what I would do without this.

And so I would listen. So, you know, you asked me, you know what was my perception? My perception was knowing what I had learned from these folks over the years. I realized if I did it right there was a pretty good chance that I would feel better. So the question I think you're probably thinking is, well why didn't you do it earlier?

Well, you have to understand. Exactly. There's a lot of, there's a lot of dynamics in a marriage that sometimes don't allow you to do that. And I think, you know, the karate Kid said it well you know, when the student is ready, the teacher appears. So when the student was ready, the teacher appeared.

She had appeared 30 something years before he did just didn't see her. (Kathy laughs) I cannot tell you how much I love that. And I'm gonna tell you a quick, tiny, personal story. I am so interested in this conversation because I have my guy is a, and my beloved is a tennis player. He's an athlete.

He's lifting weights every day. He watches me and, and then every now and again I catch him just trying things and I'm like no, no, no And, but it's, I have had trouble teaching him. And Karate Kid is one of his favorite movies. (all laughing) So we will resonate with that. He will resonate that with that.

And I just think it's really I understand what you're saying, Wayne. I don't mean to diminish it. I think it's, I just, I think it's very impressive that the two of you could do it together. It's not hard for everybody, but for some it is. And, and certainly dynamics are gonna play a role.

I've run into that several occasions but it's the same time. What you just said is absolutely true when the person's ready. And I think sometimes some of us go I love this work and I'm gonna to force it. But if you do it and you do it, and you do it and you commit from the beginning and it seems like that's what you all did. And that's why I'm so interested in this conversations.

Thank you for that. Yeah, and you were, you were, you were saying why did you wait so long, partly pandemic or were you just really wanting to feel better too? I don't know.. You know, so I mean, if you want the full the full thought process, so, I really didn't want to do it I do. For a lot of different reasons, but I said, I've committed to this, I'm going to do it.

And for the first, you know, five to 10 lessons I just really was not looking forward to it, but I committed to the 30 lessons and I was gonna make sure I did it. And I will tell you something interesting happened. I took a session with Kathy and then I went out for a bike ride. And I remember sitting by the pool, talking to my my business partner afterwards. And I just felt so open.

And, and so like, just everything was flowing the ideas were flowing and I just felt fantastic. And I said, well, gee, Wayne, this must be caused from something that you normally haven't done to feel this way. And so what happened was kind of a switch went off and I went from not wanting to do the sessions to looking forward to the sessions. And now fast forward, you know, we started in middle of January. Now It's if I don't get my three sessions in a week, it's like No, July we started it.

Right. You said January. Did I. Yeah. I said, we were in January, We're fast forward to January.

I thought you said, you started. And so. (Kristi laughs) So. Its a wonder, its truly a wonder. This is part of my original point.

It's like, well done, couple, carry on. So. Fast forward to January. So yeah so, actually, I look forward to the three sessions and if I don't get the three sessions it's my body actually is starting and not is starting is craving it. And, I will tell you the one quick thing that I've noticed is that prior to July, you know, I'm starting to feel a little bit older in my mid to late fifties now.

And you know, you wake up in the morning you've got that creek the back. It takes you a little amount of time to get started. And so I would talk to my contemporaries and, you know you complain about your, your health conditions. And I say, you know, how do you feel? Oh yeah, oh my back.

Or, Oh, it takes me a while. And what I realized is since I've started Pilates I don't have those same issues. I literally wake up in the morning and I'm ready to go. And I have noticed that is definitely something that is very attractive to me. That's a big statement for, for all the activities you do and for probably a lot of men and women for that matter.

For sure. That no but I need to be here or do the thing or do the thing. And so I'm just so impressed that the commitment was made early that you're married when you did it. And still (laughs) and that, that you're willing the service that you're both providing right now is is probably bigger than any of us know, because it's true. And so, I was gonna ask a question and I'll do it anyway, even though I'm not did you were, when you, in those first for 10 sessions say when you said you wouldn't make excuses or you didn't wanna go you would try to make an appointment.

Was that because you didn't want the wrath of Kathy? No. Or was that because you just knew it was tough? No, my body didn't wanna go. Or whatever?

I literally, I mean if you look into progression, you got, you're talking to a guy that has never been able to touch his toes. So I am completely inflexible. Well, that's not true anymore But that's not true anymore, but I'm completely inflexible. And, you know, I talked to my buddies on the golf course and like, hey, you know, we're getting older. And it's like, yeah, we really need to stretch.

And I would be like I would say it and they'd be like it doesn't your wife teach that thing? Doesn't like, does I'm like, yeah. And, but still, it was like now I gotta get back to the gym tomorrow morning. And it has, my body hurts from the stretching. I mean, I was, I would sweat.

I mean, there was a release because, you know, Kathy, I would stretch and and in ways that I had never stretched before and, it was one, it felt good, but it was painful. You know, Kathy was like, you don't have to grunt. It's like, no, no, no, that's involuntary. It literally just that those noises just came out of my body because it was painful. And, and, you know, it's just like with any kind of pain you're like, do I really want to do this again?

And I really had to think about that yes, I did. Because I wanted to get to the point where I wanted to be What made, you know, you would? In other words like I would quit at that point. If I'm, if I'm in pain, like what made you, was it Kathy's example or was it you're not gonna give up? I don't know. No, I mean.

What made you go through that? Yeah, you can remember. I'd seed, so like, for me, I'm a bit stubborn. I would see these people. I know.

Come down, you know they'd walk in and they'd walk out out of pain. So I had experience, for me it was, how did I know? I knew because even after that first session, I felt looser. I felt better. As much as it was painful, I felt better.

So I said, okay, I'm gonna hold onto that little piece of, of feeling better. And, and I'm gonna just hold on to that because I know, when, if I continue on with this this is the feeling that I wanna have for the rest of my life. If I can interject? Please. So for many people that are, you know, in Wayne's genre you know, whether be what he trained to work out, whether it be his age bracket, whatever.

It is so foreign from what some people's understanding of workout is and body connection is that it is almost like speaking a different language. And if you think about when you first step into a Pilates studio and you've never done it you've never done Pilates, you've never done yoga. You've never done anything that has a mind, body connection. You know, where you have to fully be concentrated on every little nuance of what your body's doing. It is like entering for me to go to China and try to understand.

And so, you know your now your head hurts when you're in a different country. And you're trying to understand the different language the body, not the mind. Cause you see, when you watch me teach him there's not a lot that I'm asking him to do. But what I'm asking his body to do is to speak a different language. Know, your feet are going to go like this.

Know you're going to move from here. And that to every synapse is literally speaking Chinese to an American the first day. So well said, Kathy, really. So, with what you said, Wayne and and Kathy I'd love your observation too. Wayne, is it true in the first 10 sessions then you will feel better?

Oh I felt better after, I felt different. After the first session I literally felt different after the first session. Now, how long did that sensation last? Not long, but I found myself craving it. Although, although it, it not although I felt myself craving it and that's why I came back.

I was able to get through the concept that oh this is gonna hurt, but I want to do it. And when I say it hurts, it was, it wasn't hurt a pain. It was just uncomfortable. And I knew that I wanted to get to a place where, I was, my body was in a correct position where I wouldn't be uncomfortable. Thank you, Kathy, what was your observation after the first few sessions with Wayne?

Please. So I also knowing he is my husband. So, I do know the way his mind works, sometimes. He does not, he's very resistant to new things. So I knew that until he started seeing changes which is one reason I started taking the photos so that I could give him concrete evidence, look, look, look, you're changing.

This was today. This was five days. This was five days ago. So I can give him physical evidence of the progression so that he would continue to move forward. Even though he had committed and I knew he would do the 30.

I wanted him to start getting momentum to going in. I think it's scary for a lot of people to start something new. You know, I love starting new things and not knowing anything, right. Like, but I love it. I'm like, I know nothing.

Let me go, fantastic. Let me learn. There are some people like, you know what? I like this, I'm good at this. I'm gonna try something else that's like this or I'm just gonna stay with this.

Yap, yap. It's whatever it's, there's no wrong or right. It just understanding your client and your client's mindset. So I did have the advantage that I understood his mindset going in to it which is the one reason I started taking the photos so that I could have proof. And I also was trying to bring his awareness to changes as he was doing his session by when I would remove a piece of equipment and he didn't need that anymore.

Or he would progress from one piece of equipment to another piece of equipment or move from bent legs to straight legs. You know, those, I would point that out to him so that he knew that he was progressing and that he it wasn't that he knew nothing anymore. So I think most important thing is to know your client and how to motivate that particular client. Whether it's your husband or not Kathy, you've taught so many teachers and more so lately than maybe clients that come in off the average show so to speak. How was this different for you?

And it's also your husband. So it might be too loaded of a question, but I wanna know what you having done it again with someone who hasn't been doing it even though he had sort of the inside scoop on it. How do you, what advice would you give to teachers that are taking on somebody new? I think you've made it clear that they have to commit to a certain degree in order for it to mean anything. But what about like when you're actually in the process if you could just expand on that, you've touched on it.

So, I mean, quite honestly I love taking new clients like real clients, not teachers. And now that we're down here half the time it's more difficult for me to do that. But when we were full time up north, I would always every year try to get someone who had never done Pilates and teach them and also teach my I always kept client clients because I feel what happens as a teacher. If you don't do that, you get some idea of what the method is and not it's real application. You know, when you teach a teacher you go pull your left rib in three centimeters down and back to the right.

And they do it. You teach a client and they have no idea about anything that they've never done Pilates. They have no idea about their body. And so for me, I love it because it's the opportunity for me to always put my money where my mouth is. It's easy for people to say, oh, I do this as a teacher oh, I can do that as a teacher, or this is great.

Or use this method of mine, it's fabulous. And if you give it to teachers the teachers are gonna make it work. They're gonna make, but if you train real clients, the average Joe then that tests the efficacy of your work and the truer I can be to this work, the better I am for my teachers and the better I am as a teacher because it keeps rechallenging myself my communication skills, the sign of the times, you know? So every generation, every right now because of all of COVID and everything so many people are rounded forward, rounded forward rounded forward, right? Different than a different time.

When we were wearing big cloggy cloggy shoes and low slung jeans people were sitting in their hips a lot. When we were doing weightlifting, you know in the eighties where women were always doing the weightlifting, you saw all shoulder issues, right? So, you have to stay in touch with reality. And reality is clients of the day so that you can be better suited for your teachers that you train. And it is difficult, but you have to, like I said, for to keep your claim going, you have to figure out what is going to motivate them to continue to train.

What, you know, when you do that by understanding what their goals are when they walk into the room. If you ask, you know, your student what do your potential client what do you want from this work? And they say to you I wanna look like, you know, Christie Brinkley. And they are, you know, four feet tall and four feet wide. Well, Pilates is not gonna do that for you.

You know, if you tell me you want to improve your flexibility your strength, your control. If you wanna improve your quality of life, your golf game, if you wanna sit up better, if you want to get rid of the aches and pains, you know, that's something we do. If I can, you can be stronger, faster whatever your level is, Pilates can enhance that. But the first and foremost, you have to know the goals of your client, their needs and what will motivate them. You know, I had a captive audience here so that's one thing.

But whenever I have a client that comes in I will say to them, listen, I need you to commit to this. And this will go back to one reason why I'm not teaching, I don't teach one-offs because people come in and they wanna take a lesson with me, just one lesson. And you know, quite honestly, Wayne could give them a lesson and make them sore and point out everything that's wrong and give them an incredible lesson 'cause they found everything that's wrong. And then tomorrow they come in and their body's totally different because we know that's the way it works. But when you're working the method, which is the gooey part knowing that you're moving from here to here when I get centering, I'm gonna move to control.

And with concentration, you know when you really are doing that and you can get them to understand that it's not just today that they have to go give me this chunk of time. Then you then you'll get progress. If you won't, they won't and you won't Again, thank you because it's such a clear explanation as are. And I have to say this now that you're all your books and all your work with the Red Thread and the Red Thread ranch, and that continuing of your training, you do that, you do link everything and you do show why and, and help other people. I know this from personal experience I'm just throwing it out there.

So, thank you for that. And thank you for being so clear about it. Wayne, I have a similar question for you which is what advice would you give to someone like you, who is an athlete, Who is, you know, I'm not gonna say set in your ways because obviously you're not in terms of you're open to challenge, obviously, and, but you you've got all this regimen that keeps you going and you have purpose, I now know, given on your family history. So what advice would you give to someone like you or anyone who thinks Pilates is something else or just anything? What advice would you give to somebody who's brand new to it, based on your experience?

Yeah, I mean, so I've got a bunch of friends that I play golf with and they've noticed that I'm hitting the drop the ball further, and I'm much more flexible and I can actually, you know, stick a pose whereas you just, it was unheard of a year ago. It's really simple. It's not brain surgery. It's just, just be try to be open-minded and give it a shot. And I just, again, I know from my my cohorts, they, you know, "oh, you're doing Pilates Wayne." Yeah, "well, that's great.

You know, when are you getting back to the gym?" And so it's really is it's if you try it and commit to it, then, I mean, I'll be honest. I've said this to Kathy. I have absolutely other than the social interaction that I get with my friends at the gym, I have no desire to go back. So it sounds like this is a really overall good experience but I've got to think that there was hurdles or there were trepidations or there was, I don't know. So I'll start with you, Kathy.

Can you please tell us for one, what made, you know you could take this on and what happened along the way? Tell us what, what were your trepidations and what came of them? So I'll tell you honestly, I was, you know I was really nervous about teaching my husband and how it would affect our relationship. One, because, you know, I was a teacher and he was a student which changes the dynamic of a marriage where you're always trying to, you know keep a balance. I also was afraid of what if, so Pilates reveals everything.

We know this in the body doesn't lie, right? The body doesn't lie. So what if I'm working with him and, you know, I know I know the work and I know how the work works because I've trained many, many people but there are people you start to train and you go (gushing) you're not for me to teach. I need to move you somewhere else, somebody else. And I've sent people to other people thinking that they would be better suited teacher for them than I, than I am, you know, you have to not every teacher is for every student.

So I was afraid that would be one thing. Another thing I was afraid of is what would the work reveal? Because what we know is when you see something, what is it, if it's something negative it takes 10 positives to unsee a negative or unhear a negative thing, right? Mentally. But what I was so relieved and happy to have found is that I actually fell more in love with him because I saw his determination which is something I've always admired and loved about him.

I saw his focus. I saw his dedication into wanting to do it right. 'Cause sometimes you'll see me on the table and go just move, like just move. And he's like, I wanna do it right. And I'm like, okay, but you have to move and do it right.

But it wasn't me telling him how to do it right. It was that, he wanted to do it right. And that really warmed my heart because he really wanted to put the work in. He really wanted to do it right. And it, let me see inside, you know, a part of him that might not have been so revealed to me had it not been in the studio.

Years ago, we had a friend and we would go see Zach's, all Zach's football games and there was always ballet performances. And, you know, Zach's last game And Mike Maitland, he said to me, you know, it's it's a precious moment because when else are you going to share such raw life experience with your son? You know, let into this world. And so Wayne in the studio with me, it allowed me to see into him in his world a way that I would have never seen nor appreciated had he not allowed the vulnerability to come into the studio, had he not then accepted my tutorage. My corrections had he not given it, the he gave it the respect, you know, so it showed me facets about him that I had never seen in this capacity, which made me love him more.

The flip side of that is that had that not happened, we would be sitting you know, I would be here by myself going don't teach your husband Pilates. (laughing) Yeah. Thank you for that. I think that is honestly the most important part. I literally started this business and our mission around this part of the business is around the joy and ease you can facilitate through movement.

And if we can help people go that way because I think no matter how, the fact that the two of you did it together is so impressive but the fact that anybody does it and when anybody does move in any discipline, in my opinion you have this opportunity to find out more about who you really are because and this may be stretching a little far but I do have one last question for you, Wayne along the same line and it's. I think that you manifest physically what you think what you do consciously or unconsciously whatever it is, but that, that the physical manifest. And so when you allow someone to go do it this way just go back and forth and move and breathe sure. And, and then, but all of a sudden you're doing it in the way that it sounds like you were anyway, practice wise, you, you stuck to it and you stuck to, I'm sure the, it wasn't a new day every day in terms of new exercises they built I know Kathy well enough that they build on each other. There's a thread.

And, and so out of that, you become either different or more. And so my question after all those words is do you have any thing to say about that Wayne like independent of what you can do in golf and tennis and et cetera or cycling. What, is there anything you can tell us about this part of it? Yeah, I'll pivot a little. So I will tell you that one very unexpected gifts has been you know, I've heard Kathy and I've heard a lot of other people who I've been fortunate enough to attend a lot of dinners with Kathy and sit next to a lot of interesting people.

And, and so I'm, I'm more of a businessman, critical thinker and not so much in touch with my emotional side. And so, but I've heard, you know, through the years you know, you feel much more open, you're more open to ideas. You're more open to different ways of thinking. And I just was like, yeah, okay. And, and so what I found, and as I've been in one of those dinners, when you said that.

Yes, you were in many of those dinners. So what I will tell you, what I found is that I am, and I can only attribute it to cause nothing. There's no other stimuli other than this that that is different is that I'm much more open to new ways of thinking. And when I say new ways of thinking different ways of looking at certain situations and than I was before, and the only, again the only thing I can attribute it to is that I'm feeling much more open from a physical perspective. And it's, other than Kathy keeps putting her hand to my back to make sure I sit up straight.

Hands are here. Hands are here. Then it hurts. But, That's the elbow. Always gonna be wife.

But it's now it's been, it has been changing. And again, you know, to kind of (inaudible) re reiterate what you kind of asked before you know, we've got a friend he's 70 years old and he asked to have knee surgery, and we've been in his company with his wife and the four of us. And he, oh, I play golf with him. And, and he said, Kathy, you know, is there, can you give me some exercises? Is there anything I can do?

And, and so here's a guy who's 70 years old who played college basketball, who is an avid golfer travels, skis. And he said, I need something different. He said, because I it's, I've noticed a lot of things to the detriment of it happening in my body. And so Kathy actually is gonna start training him as well. But I told her that, and not at my expense of, for my days but, you just literally have to be open to it.

And if you commit to it, it's, it's not brain surgery. It's if you commit to it, you will see a difference. And it's just, how do you get people to, to do it? And if I knew that I would open up my own studio and you know, hire a bunch of instructors, but it's how do you get people to actually make a change? And that's, that's the difficult part is to be open to making that change Well, to, to the perfect segue that the two of you have done that we've seen the videos we've seen the change in you, Wayne, I know you before and I do know you to be the sort of no offense, but tighter business like if we're one minute late, Yeah I mean.

And I don't know if that part is changed because it shouldn't probably. No that hasn't changed. That part hasn't changed. Yeah, but at the same time, the fact that you would go through this whole process and it's it's a process, it's a long one. And the pictures are speak words.

The, the videos that we have on Pilates any time speak even more. I hope that your example encourages a lot of people because it is very hard to get people to understand that no really life can be better. And it, in my opinion it doesn't even have to be this way, but it's the practice. And that's what Kathy has been so good about in our industry if you will, that it's like, no, you don't do the one-offs. You don't come to work for this or the that you do the method.

And Kathy has been brilliant at that. And in the pictures and the videos I've seen of your experience with that, it, you both proved it in these times. And I cannot think you more. I would, I actually want to keep talking. I may try and call you afterwards, but, but for now I want to just thank you because I don't know that anyone has ever videoed it so well the fact that you did it as a couple is is truly magnificent and wow, thank you.

I don't know how else to say it yet but I probably will find more ways later but thank you so much for doing this interview for doing the work Wayne for Kathy, never, ever, ever relenting and showing us all, all the ways it can be done. And the ultimately the method there's so much appreciation coming from someone who is trying to spread that word that that's my mission and Kathy is doing such a great job. And thank you, Wayne, for participating and certainly for this interview. I'm gonna let you go. But thank you so much I just want to say thank you.

Yeah. And honestly, the fact that you are making all 30 sessions available for people to see and for people to look and say, oh, wait this progression was here. Why did this happen? Oh, now I can see it here for them to actually see the method at work with the 30 sessions. I can't thank you enough for your time and your energy and your dedication for bringing the method forward in a way that no one has.

Thank you. Absolutely, my pleasure. Yeah. Thank you. And we're gonna have the links for all the books that you probably have another one out. Since I last saw you, you never stopped working but all the links will be in the description below up for how you can find out more about how the Red Thread works and maybe why she chose things she did.

But I think at the end of the day, it has to do with the person in front of you. And the fact that it was her husband is just makes Kathy and Wayne that much more special. So, thank you. Thank you. We'll end it in that.